Eye to Eye

I had a meeting with Canon UK on Thursday 2 December. The meeting was attended by the Canon Europe Product Manager, Canon Europe Product specialist, Canon UK Technical expert - scanners, Canon UK Technical expert - printers and a Canon UK PR representative. The meeting lasted for three hours.

A meeting was called for as a result of a problem I had experienced with the Canon 9950F scanner and a red cast on the PIXMA ip8500 printer. Canon have taken these issues very seriously and were keen to get to the root of the problems. I also invited you to submit your questions that I would endeavour to get answered by the experts. Here is a condensed version of the meeting.

We started the session by discussing the PIXMA ip8500 printer. The actual printer I used for the review was taken out of the reviewers pool and thoroughly checked over by a technical expert. His findings were that the printer was producing acceptable prints. He also tried the settings which I had suggested and produced a awful looking print. The print using the default settings were OK. I am not sure what is going on, the prints I have been producing with other Canon printers (including the PIXMA iP5000) have all been very good. Other manufacturers printers (HP & EPSON) have also produced excellent prints. I was also keen to find out why the iP8500 should be turning out excessive red in the skin tones. One possible solution could be in the media I used for the test, it was not the latest batch (the latest stock is watermarked on the reverse). What does cause me cause for concern is that the Product manager though that my red faced baby picture was within the bounds of an acceptable print. I have 30 years experience as a portrait photographer and to me the print colouring is not acceptable. I will call another iP8500 in for further testing.

Many people have asked about the new BCI-7 series of ink tanks. These new cartridges boast greater print longevity (up to 100 years is the claim). I am told that these are for the Japanese market only. When I pushed question further, Canon could not comment on future product availability or developments. My own guess, and I stress this is my own view, is that yes these will be available, probably early in the new year. It would be folly for Canon not to launch this hot product world-wide. I suspect that there must be a mountain of un-sold BCI-6 ink tanks to dispense with first.

Several people asked about monochrome printing and wanted to know if Canon intended producing a grey ink. The answer is no, they felt it was a small niche market and that the greyscale printing option was sufficient for the average user. Monochrome printing is not high up on the scale for most people. Canon suggested using a custom profile for those users who want higher quality monochrome prints.

Posted by: GS645S on Nov. 21 2004,15:19

I'd like to know if Canon UK still maintains what they have said about the Canon 9950F flatbed scanner being as good as a dedicated film scanner and what do base their affirmations on.

They base their statement on the hardware being comparable in specifications and that the 9950F offers the user more scope. My own tests confirm that with 35mm the 9950F is not up to dedicated film scanner quality. However, when using larger formats, i.e. 120 film and 5x4 the quality obtained was excellent. 35mm film scanning needs some more work, no doubt many people will be satisfied with the quality. As a footnote to this, I scanned in a 35mm transparency and printed it out on the i9950 A3 printer and the quality was very good – perhaps not quite as good as on my old De-Vere enlarger but close.

Posted by: Willem B on Nov. 21 2004,17:07

Could you ask Canon about the BCI-7 ink set, if it will become available in Europe, if it will work in the current Pixma and i9950 printers and what these inks could do for us.

To repeat an earlier statement, the BCI-7 ink set is for the Far East market. Canon have no plans (at least none that they were prepared to disclose) to introduce them to the European market. I personally would treat this answer with a pinch of salt, I can’t imagine them not introducing these inks to Europe, especially as most of the information is now in the public domain.

Posted by: PJG on Nov. 21 2004,17:09


2. What they intend to do about low grade software packaged with these products.

Canon have been in talks with third party software writers, SilverFast should be an option in the not too distant future

3. Naturally a response related to your 3 faulty units.

Canon have not been able to replicate the problem on any of their units. I completed the review after updating my entire system without further problem. Canon did suggest that I pressed the calibrate button and this would sort out the problem, I did, and it did. The manual states that the calibrate button resets the white point, Canon says it does a number of other things too. The bottom line is that pressing the calibrate button worked, pity the manual was not clear about the extra functions.

Posted by: Willem B on Nov. 21 2004,17:37

I'd like to add the Pixma Red problem to your list.
Will they fix it (in a reasonable time), or won't they fix it at all

This was the subject of much debate. Canon didn’t regard the red as being unacceptable – I do. We discussed how they arrive at a particular colour. The colour settings are a result of a panel of people looking at prints and giving their personal preferences and then averaging out the numbers. This process is called Psychometrics - using humans as meters. I suggested that rather than rely on other peoples opinions they should include a small piece of software which the user could print a sample page and select the image they like, something like Variations in Photoshop, enter the value into the driver and presto you have a custom profile – am I being too simple? Canon loved this idea, lets hope we see it incorporated with future printers or even scanners.

As for the red prints, we discussed this in some detail and it seems like the profiles have been updated, although they are still called PR1, PR2 & PR3 they now relate to the newer batch of media. This could have been the cause of the problems, I was using older stock, but then so may other people. I have called in the iP8500 printer again and will take a second look at it, this time with the latest batch of PR 101 paper.

Posted by: Kevgermany on Nov. 21 2004,18:45

Do canon have a compelling argument as to why I should replace my Epson 4870 with a 9950f instead of a dedicated film scanner such as the Nikon 8000 or 9000 series (or the Microtek 120f)

Obviously Canon will tell you that their 9950F is a better scanner than the Epson 4870 and that is reason enough. My own test shows that it is a whisker better, but nothing that stands head and shoulders above. The 9950F will scan large format film and printed material, at my last look I don’t think the Nikon is this versatile and it cost’s nearly £2500 – that’s a good enough reason.

Why have Canon not addressed the software faults you found in the 9900f scanner

The are addressing them, LaserSoft is developing a version of SilverFast for the 9950F. Ed Hamrick has also been to see Canon and has a version of VueScan for the 9950F out now.

What will canon do in 10 to 20 years time if their claims for print longevity from their printers prove to be false?

Their claims stand, but you have to read the small print. Store your prints correctly and use the recommended media. PR-101 will give the longest life. The PP-101 media is a greatly reduced print life. Some confusion may come from this as Canon always state the print life for PR-101 and not for other media. I have been caught out a few times on this, I have used PP-101 thinking it is PR-101 – confused?

Will canon maintain 2 digital SLR development paths, the APS-C and full size sensor route - or can we expect convergence?

Will Canon continue to develop their film SLR ranges such as the EOS1V, EOS3? (apart from cosmetic changes such as we've seen with the 300 and the 30/33).

What's the development path for their scanner line?

Sssshhhh. Kev you can’t ask questions like this. This is future development, no company will tell you their secrets.

Posted by: John Galt on Nov. 22 2004,02:48

The key question I have for Canon is what they are doing about print longevity. Being a marketing person myself, I am sure they have some story about how what they have today is sufficient, but if you can tell them on our behalf that it is not and ask them what their plans are to do better, we would all be very interested in their response.

Canon stands by Wilhelm Research figures. If you use PR-101 media you will achieve longer lasting prints. Take note of Canon’s recommended storage and display guidelines. My own feelings are that the BCI-7 ink set will be available early in the new year.

Posted by: Ronny Rooman on Nov. 22 2004,11:45

I would like to find out what the maximum dimensions are that one can print with the Pixma IP5000. I like to make panorama's and the specifications in the datasheet don't seem to be complete.

I pushed Canon hard on this issue, especially as so many of their cameras now have a panorama stitching facility. They suggested that you use the banner printing option. I told them that this was not a satisfactory answer as this only supports plain paper. They will be looking into this with a view to increasing the print length within the driver. The bottom line on this is that they haven’t got suitable length media, but if there was a demand they would produce it. Then again there are other paper manufacturers who do offfer longer lenght media.

Posted by: Willem Wiersma on Nov. 22 2004,16:33

What a wonderful initiative Vincent. My most urgent question is: will there ever be a Canon digital equivalent of the EOS 3: a 1.3 crop factor and good viewfinder; lithium battery and not so heavy as the 1-series, but - yes! - focus and metering capabilities of the 1 series? The prosumer like me would love that and gladly pay extra for such a camera!

Canon have your suggestions on file – lookout for the Canon Wiema 3Ds

Posted by: Lynn on Nov. 22 2004,17:27

Archival Issues:

With the new pixma printers, what longevity testing has been done on the inks? I tend to look at Wilhelm Research regarding accurate independent testing, but have not found any reference to the Canon Pixma printer inks. When reporting longevity, which papers (Canon and third party like Hanhemeule etc) can be used to achieve long lasting results?

Pixma printers use the same series BCI-6 inks as on previous Canon printers. The best media for print longevity is the PR-101

Canon Web site issues:

This is a smaller issue, but when trying to view canon's web site for offerings of printers, there is very little that jumps out to differentiate what each of these printers does to make them unique from all the other canon printers. For instance, I wanted to find a 13x19 photo printer, but I have to dig through all of the specifications of all their printers to discover which ones handle this paper size (but then I have to decide if 13x19 is A3/B+ .... why not just say the page size right next to each printer on the site?

I pointed this out and Canon are working at updating their web site to make finding suitable products easier.

Posted by: Danny on Nov. 22 2004,18:49

I to am interested in MORE BCI-6/ANY_Paper long-term no-fading combinations.

My view is that, In the last year, Epson lost some turf in the mid-range market partly because of head clogging and color gamut/metamerism. Canon has made some gains because of perceived color gamut and quality. HP is close to Canon but Canon still has the edge in terms of ink cost. Canon only needs to give more options and more data for print longevity and they will be on top (if it is possible with BCI-6 inks of course, and I suspect they would not give you info on other non-Canon papers that give long-lasting prints, even if they require a custom printer profile; you lose nothing to ask!

Print longevity was a key issue and I pointed out that there were many readers who were concerned about this. Canon’s target is to continue looking at ways to improve their print life, this will be an ongoing task. As with improvements in cameras, I am sure Canon and for that matter Epson and HP will find a solution. At the moment they are making silent upgrades to PR-101 (the new stock is watermarked on the reverse), this has added an extra 10+ years to the print life. Contrary to most peoples belief, the dye inks are quite stable it is the way the dyes are attacked when they are on the paper that causes most fading (gas fade). It is therefore important to get the coating right on the media to protect the dyes.

Posted by: pmb on Nov. 22 2004,19:33

Will Canon take the initiative for an open standard to measure "real resolution" and "real Dmax" for scanners? Today's dpi numbers are getting out of control, and are confusing to customers who expect specifications to match pricing.

The difficulty in working out a true Dmax is that some manufactures will clip their blacks later than others. So one man’s Dmax factor of 3.8 may be another man’s Dmax 3.2. Rather like one person’s acceptable red is not acceptable to another J

Posted by: Clare on Nov. 22 2004,19:59

I would be interested to know from Canon what the rationale is behind the decision to make the ip5000 the 1 picolitre model and not the 6000 or the 8500. Seems like a strange decision to me.

The small 1 picolitre is a substitute for the lighter colours. If you make the print dot small enough then you don’t need to fill the spaces with lighter

Posted by: G Binns on Nov. 22 2004,20:06

1) Colour Management is way too hard for the majority. Why can't canon get together with other manufactures and produce a self calibrating colour management workflow. i.e. camera, printer and monitor all talk to each other to ensure you get correct colour first time and permanently.

Canon printers do use the EXIF information from a digital camera.

Posted by: oldabelincoln on Nov. 23 2004,05:33

Is there any technical reason why Canon does not offer a model with 6 or 8 colors in the current manner _AND_  a pigment black cartridge for text as well?  I need both good photo output and fast text, and that means I have to settle for an i860 or a Pixma 4000 or 5000.  I'd happily buy an i960 or similar printer for photos, but I don't print enough photos to justify a dedicated photo printer or to keep that dedicated printer used often enough that it would not clog from lack of use.  I need high quality photos AND fast text in the same unit.  

Canon has a line of Photo Quality printers which use the 6 & 8 ink sets. These are also very capable text printers. However, the Pixma iP5000 may be your better option as it also offers a pigment black purely for text printing. Photo Quality on the iP5000 is excellent and you will be hard pushed to tell the difference between this and a dedicated Photo printer.

We're ok so far (10 months), but what will happen when I send a print to a friend?  I live in a generally dry area (Silicon Valley), and he lives in a generally humid area (Memphis, Tenn.), and most of the reports (and posted samples) of rapid gas fading are from humid areas.  Nobody has tracked this down yet, but the posted stories are legion.   Some people have posted such bad and rapid fades that it's hard to think of "print longevity" when it's clear that under the right conditions (whatever they are), prints can fade significantly in just a few months.

You are quite right, humidity and other factors will cause one print to fade faster than another. I guess with any print you will have to allow for local conditions.

How about adding a light gray ink to improve B&W printing?  I had originally said "a mid tone gray" and then I remembered how rapidly liight cyan and light magenta run out, so perhaps a light gray is more useful than a mid tone gray.  

As stated before, b/w printing is quite a niche market. Canon have no plans to introduce a Grey ink.

Posted by: Si-Tec on Nov. 23 2004,09:44


Here's one for my 'wish list'- are Canon are going to start supplying photo paper in decent size packs like HP do? I'm sure packs of 50 (or 100 even) sheets of at least the Photo Paper Plus series would be welcome by many of us?

Your point has been noted

Several people have asked about future developments in cameras and lenses. Canon will not comment on future developments - Nikon also reads these forums.

Posted by: caliberphoto on Nov. 23 2004,20:51

Having used the Canon S9000 & Epson 2200 both extensively, I must concur: Where art thou pigment, Canon?

Canon have looked into this but feel that the consumer prefers the colours produced by dye inks. They also mentioned that pigment inks make the head more prone to clogging. I haven’t had this problem with a Epson 2100 yet.

Posted by: CJvS on Nov. 24 2004,14:49

A simple question regarding the 9950F. They have this superior lens, why do not I see this back in the comparison with the Epson 4870? Is it the Software ?

My own finding confirm that good software will draw out more image quality. In a test using VueScan on the Epson 4870 I actually got sharper results that using Epson’s own software. I think we are still looking for the holy grail in flatbed film scanners.

Posted by: AlexV on Nov. 24 2004,15:32

Could you ask if Canon plan to add panoramic printing as Epson does with variable length of paper up to 44 inch?

Canon are now looking into this as a result of the meeting.

could you ask Canon if they plan also to support additional color cartridge RGB in the future, this is interesting to see they have choose the red and epson the blue, why not the full RGB+CMYK+Photo CMYK+Gray ...

Canon felt that the extra red and green were sufficient to cover the gaps in the colour space. Epson uses pigment ink and feels that there was a gap in their blue.

Posted by: George Klein on Nov. 26 2004,02:36

I am concerned about the 1pl drop size of the iP5000. Although this might be capable of producing very high resolution images, it seems to encourage print head clogging problems. How does Canon ensure that the ink is free of contaminants including bacteria, so that the print head will not become clogged? What do the light and heavy cleaning cycles actually do to remove contaminants from plugged nozzles?

Dye inks are not so prone to head clogging as pigment inks. The inks are produced in a controlled environment, there is no chance of growing penicillin on these inks.

I also have a B/W laser printer which I use for text and general printing. I do not need the colour printer to also print text. If the iP5000 is only used for photo printing, it really is just a 4 colour printer, the same as my old HP. What distinguishes the 2 printers? Why should I expect the new Canon to produce results that are superior to my existing printer?

The Canon uses 1 pl drop sizes which will produce photo quality – have a look at the samples published in my review.

Posted by: Colin_Banfield on Nov. 27 2004,13:41

1) Why not bundle Silverfast or Digital ICE as an option with the 9950F scanner if you can't develop better scanning software?

This is on the cards. Canon is in talks with LaserSoft and are offering help with development. The 9950F has FARE Level 3, which is every bit as good as DIGITAL ICE.

2) Why doesn't Canon ever specify the dynamic range of their scanners?  This spec is important for the 9950F since it's replacing the dedicated film scanners.

They do, it is 3.8

3) Would Canon's printers ever really print good black and white without grey ink?

With a custom profile you will get perfect b/w

4) Will we ever see a single printer optimized for both text and photos? With the ability to replace the colour inks with black inks for large text print jobs.

Try the Pixma iP5000

Posted by: Clive (Singapore) on Nov. 29 2004,06:52


I'm looking for a scanner that can let me scan some old negatives, and also to pass electrical copy of selected photo's back to the UK etc as well as for high-quality scans for submission of my work to photo competitions.

I'm REALLY looking forward to the answers from Canon, as until I read your review I was leaning in favour of their machine. The scans you've made are very excellent with the 9950 machine, but the reliability of the hardware and the lack of ICE combined with the Scangear has totally put me off.

Canon has FARE Level 3 which is the equivalent of Digital ICE and is every bit as good, as a bonus it is also faster.

-Please ask CANON how they can convince me why I should invest my hard earned $$ in their product and not Epson's.

Read the review and decide for yourself.

The meeting lasted for three hours.